ARUN RATH, HOST:
Cheryl isn't crazy. Or if she is, you're a little crazy, too. She's the main character in Miranda July's new novel "The First Bad Man."
MIRANDA JULY: Right. Yeah, there's a baby she met when she was 6 that she re-meets in other babies throughout her life. She sort of tunes into them and checks whether they're - they are the original baby but in a new form.
RATH: Another incarnation of this baby - Kubelko Bondy.
JULY: Kubelko Bondy, yeah.
RATH: And if we were to list out Cheryl's various delusions, she wouldn't sound like a very relatable character. But one of the amazing things is - well, you're writing in first-person from inside her head. And as you talk us through it, it kind of - they become more reasonable somehow.
JULY: Right. I know. I never felt - or that was the line I was always walking - like, letting myself go totally as far as I wanted to go into her psyche, which sometimes is mine and sometimes is just something I'm making up. And then realizing, well, I can always take it back if it's too much. And there are places that I pulled back. And, you know, shaping her character was definitely one of the more delicate processes of making the book.
RATH: So there are a lot of complications with various characters in this book. And their lives intersect in various ways. It's going to be kind of complicated to talk about it. And I also don't want to reveal spoilers. But I want to talk about some of the big themes that are in this book. One of them is love and its various permutations. I was hoping you could read a part of this for us. This is where Cheryl, who's been through some of these intense experiences in the book, is reflecting on love.
JULY: Okay. (Reading) We had fallen in love. That was still true. But given the right psychological conditions, a person could fall in love with anyone or anything. A wooden desk, always on all fours - always prone, always there for you. What was the lifespan of these improbable loves? An hour? A week? A few months at best. The end was a natural thing like the seasons, like getting older, fruit turning. That was the saddest part. There was no one to blame and no way to reverse it.
RATH: There's this sort of profound moment of, well, just acknowledging the randomness there.
JULY: Right, yeah. And that something real finally did happen, but that, like, real things are completely fleeting. And you don't control them. You don't reverse them.
RATH: In the book, though, even though they might be random, they still have this kind of magical power to transform people - the love and its various permutations.
JULY: Yeah. Without giving too much away, there is an actual real baby that is made in this book. And one of the most interesting discoveries that I made, I mean, as one does when they're writing, like, you don't know everything that's going to happen, was to realize that this book was an origins story, among other things, and that it wasn't one about a baby being made by two people coming together and having sex. It was a baby made by sexual fantasy, by mistakes, by a web created in Cheryl's mind that strung together all these different people who eventually overlapped enough to create a baby.
RATH: Prior to this novel, you know, you've been known for film, performance art - you know, working in other media. Why is this story and novel and not a film?
JULY: Well, I mean, I love a challenge. There's, like, nothing that gets my heart going than the sense that I will fail. And this was kind of one of the last ones left. And just such an obvious one, like, you've written short stories. You've made movies. Can you write a novel? And to be honest, I think this novel right after - actually writing it right after I finished "The Future," my last movie. And it took a little adjusting to get back into, like, this is just a book. Like, it will never be acted out. And I remember having, like, ruminations like could Scarlett Johansson play Clee? Is she too old? And then I'd be, like, no, there will be no Scarlett Johansson, Miranda. There will just be you writing blonde hair, large breasts. Like, you know, that's what you get. And eventually I calmed down and, like, glued myself to my chair.
RATH: Do you think it'll become a film at some point?
JULY: I mean, I loved that idea while I was writing it. And I felt, like, God, this is the most, like, dramatic thing I've ever made. It's like a better movie than my movies are. Although now that it's done, I'm like, oh, it's done. Like, it doesn't need, you know, another step to it.
RATH: Miranda July's new novel is called "The First Bad Man." Miranda July, thank you.
JULY: Thank you for having me.