F: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama." Gwen Ifill is a senior correspondent on the "NewsHour" and moderator of "Washington Week in Review," both on PBS. Hi, welcome to the program.
M: Hello, Robert.
: First, tell us who is in the group you write about?
M: Deval Patrick, the governor of Massachusetts, Artur Davis, a congressman from Alabama, Barack Obama, of course, and Cory Booker, the mayor of Newark. They all have in common, they have Ivy League backgrounds, they have huge post-racial, post-civil rights ambitions. I argue a little bit about those terms, but basically these guys have all of that in common.
: One experience that some of them have in common is challenging older black politicians to get their foothold in office.
M: Cory Booker ran twice before he became mayor of Newark and at both times he ran against entrenched black politicians, the first time, Sharpe James, who is now in prison, sadly, but who was someone he challenged and took on and was taken down the first time and won the second time only because Sharpe James stepped aside. Artur Davis won his seat in Congress by challenging an entrenched member of the Congressional Black Caucus when he was told by all the leaders in politics in Alabama that he should step aside and wait his turn. So these guys take on the establishment which we usually take to mean the white establishment, but often the black establishment, too.
: There were also, I say, there were cynics who saw Jesse Jackson with a tear in his eye on the night of Barack Obama's election and said he was crying over his generation being displaced from power in black politics. Do you buy that?
M: There was a lot of discussion among the black folks I know about whether that was a real tear, or not. Having talked to Reverend Jackson for this book and understanding having covered his campaign when he ran for president, that he's a more sophisticated and complicated figure than people give him credit for. I believe it was a genuine tear. I don't think it was the fact that he was thought he was being pushed off the stage, because I don't believe he believes that he is. But, you know, this was a man who was there at the beginning and had to be taking in this moment for what it was. That aside, he had a complicated relationship with Barack Obama throughout this campaign, and so did a lot of other entrenched and traditional black leaders because they just didn't see it coming.
: I want to play for you a little - a very brief montage of voices here which to me illustrates something that you write about or when writing about the politicians and also in writing about yourself in the book. Here they are.
P: We start 2009 in the midst of a crisis unlike...
U: The financial turmoil around the world has now hit home.
U: It is important to both respect the court's authority.
U: Millions of Americans are facing foreclosure or are in foreclosure.
M: I don't think it's a time for blame.
: That last voice was Cory Booker of Newark. I played that because there's the voices of men who, on the radio, if I don't say those are African-Americans, you wouldn't know it.
M: Yeah, that's interesting, Robert because people have an entrenched notion about what an African-American voice is or what they talk about. People who don't see me don't necessarily know that I'm an African-American. When I was a newspaper reporter I used to play little tricks that way because they had these entrenched notions of who we are and how we speak and what we speak to. And I should add that a lot of African-Americans have those same entrenched notions which is why so many of these black leaders, these new black leaders, have first to answer questions from their own community. Who are you really? Are you really that black? Are you really for us? So, we have to first and foremost break out of some of our little traps that we have set for ourselves in this country about what race is.
: The story of Deval Patrick, Governor of Massachusetts - it's not an entirely successful governorship when he got elected and he has had many misadventures in office. But one of them, you write about, is that the black caucus in the state legislature figured post-racial business. Who cares? One of ours is governor right now. We want access. We demand service, and one of Patrick's aides complains about this. So, is that going to be a problem for Barack Obama?
M: Well, we're all waiting to see because this is true in every single case. In Deval Patrick's case in Massachusetts and in Cory Booker's case and Artur Davis's case and so it's got to happen as well for Barack Obama. Black officials say, well, OK, you're here now. Now what about us? And if you don't snap to right away, questions are raised and the friction begins. You're often questioned far more quickly from members of your own community than you are from the other communities. So, all of them bemoan this fact and say, listen, I'm here. I'm speaking to health care disparities. I'm speaking to recidivism. These are issues which all disproportionately affect the black community. Let me do the job for everyone, and it will affect you, too.
: But the corollary to that during the campaign, certainly for the Obama campaign and I think for some of the others you write about was some black voters saying, well, he's got to say this stuff right now to get elected. And he's got to talk about not being black or white or whatever. But, once he gets into office he'll be their voice.
M: Michael Eric Dyson described it as a wink and a nod toward the black community. Just understand that once we get there, we'll do what we need to do but what was interesting to me is I heard this from mayors, I heard this from attorneys general, I heard this from district attorneys - people of all level of government throughout the country, African-Americans who are answering exactly the same questions from their own communities and dealing with skepticism from the larger community, as well.
: With all told, do you think that Americans should look at the successes of Cory Booker, Deval Patrick, Artur Davis and above all, Barack Obama and be self-congratulatory about it and say, wow, I mean, there is a high-flying group of African-American politicians who are succeeding, including the number one?
M: Well, I think they should be a little cautious about that. There are a lot of cautionary tales in these tales of success. As you pointed out, Deval Patrick had a lot of stumbles out of the gate. When you get the new, sometimes they don't know where they're going exactly.
: But not necessarily about his being black. I mean, this wasn't the issue.
M: Well, except that, it's possible that people hold less forbearance for you when you fail, if you're the first one, if you are the first. If you are the first black quarterback and you fail, people say, uh, blacks can't be quarterbacks. If you're the first black talk show host and you fail, people say, uh, blacks can't host talk shows. So, it becomes a big - a much higher platform from which to fall if you fail. And some of them will.
: Gwen Ifill, thanks a lot for talking with us today.
M: Thank you, Robert.
SEIGEL: Gwen Ifill of PBS is the author of "The Breakthrough: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama."