ROBERT SIEGEL, host:
From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Robert Siegel.
MELISSA BLOCK, host:
And I'm Melissa Block.
The CIA's top lawyer, John Rizzo, was on Capitol Hill today. He was testifying about what he knows about the agency's destruction of controversial interrogation videotapes. Those tapes showed two terrorism detainees being subjected to severe interrogation methods, including the procedure known as waterboarding. Rizzo spoke behind closed doors at a meeting of the House Intelligence Committee, which is investigating the destruction of the tapes.
NPR's Tom Gjelten joins us here in the studio.
And, Tom, John Rizzo was the only witness before this committee today. What did the committee want to hear from him?
TOM GJELTEN: Melissa, he was the acting general counsel also in late 2005 when the decision to destroy the tapes was made. So the committee wanted to ask him what he knew about that decision to destroy the tapes, whether he knew about it ahead of time, whether he approved of the decision. This would establish whether the decision - the destruction of the tapes was an agency action or whether it was the action of a few individuals, a more limited action. There have been some indications that there were counsel against destroying the tapes. So I think the committee wanted to know what Rizzo knew about that. That's one thing.
The second thing - this is also important. As the general counsel, Rizzo would have been the point man with the White House in terms of any discussions that took place between the agency and the White House on the wisdom of destroying the tapes. And this committee is very interested to know what the White House involvement was in this decision.
BLOCK: The CIA official who actually ordered the destruction of the videotapes, Jose Rodriguez, did not show up on Capitol Hill today. Why is that?
GJELTEN: That's right, Melissa. He was the head of the Clandestine Service. He was the one, as you say, who'd ordered the destruction of the tapes. What basically happen - and they did want to hear from him today, in fact, they subpoenaed him to appear today with Rizzo. But what happened is the attorney general, Michael Mukasey, decided to launch a criminal investigation into this case. Rodriguez, as the key person, has retained counsel. And his lawyer suggested that he not - ordered him, basically, not to testify without the promise of immunity.
The committee wasn't willing to give him immunity just yet, so they excused him from testifying at least for the time being. Now, what Rodriguez' lawyer is saying is that he got a green light to destroy these tapes. That's a very important issue. And I'm sure they wanted to ask Rizzo what he knew about any green light that was given to Jose Rodriguez.
BLOCK: Tom, you mentioned that Justice Department investigation. How is the committee on Capitol Hill? How is it keeping its own inquiries separate from the criminal investigation?
GJELTEN: Well, they do have different interests, Melissa. They - of course, the Department of Justice wants to know if any crime was committed. Pete Hoekstra, who's the ranking minority member on the committee, came out today. And he reminded us that he has said in the past that there are parts of the intelligence community that are, not only incompetent, but also arrogant and possibly criminal. So he clearly wants to - wants the Justice Department to be able to proceed and find out whether there were any criminal acts that were committed.
But as far as Congress is concerned, what they're concerned about is accountability. The CIA is supposed to be accountable to Congress. And what Hoekstra and what Chairman Reyes - the Democratic chairman of the committee, Silvestre Reyes, have said is that the CIA has not been sharing, did not share what it was doing with these tapes with Congress. And that is the critical issue as far as Congress is concerned, their oversight.
BLOCK: Tom, you've been following this story since it broke about a month ago. What's the latest you've learned about why these tapes were made and why they were destroyed?
GJELTEN: They were made, Melissa, basically for two reasons. The agency wanted to know that their interrogation of these guys was legal. And also, Abu Zubaydah, one of the guys being interrogated, was seriously injured. They wanted to show that they weren't doing anything dirty during these interrogations that was actually going to kill him.
So they had lawyers and doctors watching them. And then once the tapes were made, once that - on-sight purpose was kept, then they needed them destroyed, they said.
BLOCK: Okay. NPR's intelligence correspondent, Tom Gjelten. Tom, thanks so much.
GJELTEN: Thank you.