MELISSA BLOCK, HOST:

The lead defense attorney representing Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has an excellent track record in sparing the lives of her clients. She is Judy Clarke, and she's made her reputation over the years defending notorious killers and keeping them from being executed. Among them, Susan Smith who drowned her two toddlers, the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui and Tucson shooter Jared Lee Loughner, who killed six people and wounded many others including Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. All of them were spared the death penalty. Joining me to talk more about Judy Clarke is Jonathan Shapiro, also a defense attorney who handles death penalty cases, and a friend and colleague of Ms. Clarke.

Welcome to the program.

JONATHAN SHAPIRO: Thank you.

BLOCK: And why do you think she's so successful in these cases?

SHAPIRO: I think in large measure, Judy's success has to do with the incredible energy that she puts into every one of these cases. She spends enormous time with her clients for the purpose of building trust and having a good working relationship, which is so important when the stakes are so high and decisions are literally life-and-death kinds of decisions.

BLOCK: She doesn't talk much to reporters, but one thing she has said is this - that she thinks a civilized society, in her words, shouldn't legalize homicide, referring to the death penalty.

How much do you think that belief fuels her interest in taking on these cases?

SHAPIRO: You know, I've often heard Judy Clarke say to students and others that she would hate to be judged based on the worst day of her life. And I think that is the way she views these cases, that there's so much more to a person's story, their life trajectory, than just the crime, and it's always a hard crime but I think it's just abhorrent to her that the state should take a life, particularly just trying to look at that one day.

BLOCK: If you're a defense attorney handling a case like this one, given all the evidence that's known, is your assumption at a certain point that your client will be found guilty and that your real job is to save his life in the penalty phase?

SHAPIRO: Yeah. I mean, there's no question. When the government brings a death penalty case, you know, the finding of guilt is virtually a foregone conclusion. So anybody who does this kind of work, Judy at the top of the list, will tell you that 95 percent of the effort in the run-up to trial is preparing the case for life. We haven't talked nuts and bolts about the case or her investigation or anything like that, but I can imagine that she has, you know, spent this last year finding everyone she can who knows anything about this young man's past - overseas, wherever, around the globe. I'm sure she's traveled numerous times overseas and spent a lot of time just doing the deep digging. That's where the time is spent and, you know, let's spare this client - it's not guilt or innocence.

BLOCK: There are so many victims in this case, in the Boston Marathon bombing. I wonder if seeing them in court, hearing their testimony, would ever cause her to waiver in her beliefs about her client?

SHAPIRO: You know, I kind of doubt it. You'd have to ask her. That's not to say that a lawyer defending somebody who's charged with the terrible crime like this doesn't feel the pain of the victims when they come and testify. I have been on the verge of tears myself having to do that. But it really doesn't change the big picture here. We are - Judy is - trying to save the life...

BLOCK: In this case, the life of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

SHAPIRO: Exactly.

BLOCK: Well, Mr. Shapiro, thanks very much for talking with us.

SHAPIRO: Well, you bet.

BLOCK: Jonathan Shapiro is a defense attorney. He's also a visiting professor at the Washington and Lee University School of Law.